20 thoughts on “C-19 Chat Post – September 19 2021”
Thanks TK! 🙂
It suddenly occurred to me that you should be thanked over here on occasion as well. This side has gained a lot of posts lately, sometimes more than the WHW blog. I just wish this pandemic subsides soon and we can get back to 2019 conditions.
Thanks as always Joshua!
I concur.
Waiting for the next shoe to drop.
Great post, Philip
Thank you, TK for this page and Joshua for your valuable input. Thank you also to everyone who helps to make us both aware and also to not feel quite alone in this
Joshua, thank you for your response re single dose for 12-15ish
It is the myocarditis and pericarditis concern.
I just looked some more and was not surprised by the UK but was by the latter two. UK, Hong Kong, Norway are all limiting the vaccine to a single dose for that age group.
I don’t mean to discount any of those countries, but was hoping to find some data from Israel.
Thanks Vicki. I do wonder now if this info will only promote more vaccine hesitancy from parents, especially with the potential side effects being heart related. A double-edged sword to certainly consider depending on your teens overall health and/or past history.
The one-dose `compromise’ for the 12-15 age group in the UK, Norway, and Hong Kong is leading to important discussions among scientists and policymakers. Given my limited background in virology and epidemiology I feel I can’t contribute to this particular debate, but just report the policy statements that have come out.
What concerns me is this: One dose isn’t nearly as effective as two. The difference is massive. While I understand the desire to minimize dangerous side effects, it may then be `theater’ to give the 12-15 age group any doses at all. If there’s concern about the side effects, then why even give one dose as it has only limited effectiveness.
There has been discussion with regard to diss amounts and giving the same amount to smaller bodies. I have seen some conversation re efficacy being high for younger age groups after one vaccine
The heart problems occur after the second vaccine. Even for my girls and me the irregular heartbeat showed up after second vaccine. My guess is that is the reasoning. But like you, it is a guess.
I know Faust’s concern for third vaccine is also related to the same as above. It is the younger folks (12-40) that impacts the heart. As I type, I’m wondering if some of the hesitancy for third vaccine is based on that
Diss=vaccine
No clue where diss came from
Colleague of mine in Britain just tweeted: “Just been called by @NHSTestTrace and advised to book a #PCR test, so will do it today!”
This kind of contact tracing – after it’s been determined that someone you’ve been in contact with, at work, in a gym, in a restaurant, etc … has tested positive for coronavirus – doesn’t happen systematically in the U.S., at least not that I’m aware of, even in Massachusetts. Had we done better contact tracing from the beginning we would have prevented tens of thousands of deaths, if not more, nationwide. Please keep in mind, the reason people should test after being contacted by a contacted tracer is to prevent further spread. You’re supposed to isolate, test, and only then resume normal outside-the-household activities. Here in the U.S. I get a sense that the messaging is off, as it tends to focus on what testing will do for you. It’s mostly not about you, it’s about preventing further spread.
Solidarity is a wonderful term that Europeans use – from across the political spectrum – to describe how one is supposed to be mindful of others, especially the vulnerable, at all times. It’s a term that’s rarely if ever used in the U.S. , at least outside of a particularized religious context. This is too bad. And, it’s certainly not helpful during a pandemic that our social side isn’t triggered more.
VERY impressive.
Agree. It was one of the first things I noticed in the Netherlands when I went there in 1980. The Dutch are not more caring than Americans, but their system is constructed in such a way that it incorporates a solidarity concept. This applies across all public goods, such as education, healthcare, housing, and infrastructure. The consensus around this system is almost universal.
Paradoxically, perhaps, to some Americans, the Dutch perspective on individual liberty is directly tied into solidarity. For example, the “Freedom of Education Act” (I believe it was signed in the 1920s in Holland), ensures that ALL residents of the Netherlands can access a public education of their choosing – religious or secular – without having to pay for it. So, you can send your child to any school – there are no school districts or property taxes that determine school funding – provided there is sufficient space in the school of your choosing. The principle of freedom of education is contingent on solidarity. No-one should have to pay for a public good – education – that suits their religious or secular values.
The philosophy behind this is the distinction between “positive” and “negative” freedoms. The latter refers to freedom from interference from the government; the former outlines a set of rights individual citizens have to public goods. The American system has always emphasized freedom from government interference; the Europeans, on the other hand, have mostly emphasized positive rights or freedoms. Another paradox is that Europeans are much more fearful of privacy intrusion from private firms than government. Hence, all the protections – established by legislation – from interference or intrusion by private firms.
Excellent. Thank you. And engage with people in the middle. How have we yet to learn that.
Oddly, I don’t recall a fear of measles, German measles, mumps (except it was important for boys to be exposed to them) and chicken pox. I don’t even recall a fear of polio. I have said before that we were at Humarock in early 1950s for a week or so and the cases surged so the person we rented from gave the home to my parents at no cost so they didn’t have to move my brother and me
Thanks TK! 🙂
It suddenly occurred to me that you should be thanked over here on occasion as well. This side has gained a lot of posts lately, sometimes more than the WHW blog. I just wish this pandemic subsides soon and we can get back to 2019 conditions.
Thanks as always Joshua!
I concur.
Waiting for the next shoe to drop.
Great post, Philip
Thank you, TK for this page and Joshua for your valuable input. Thank you also to everyone who helps to make us both aware and also to not feel quite alone in this
Joshua, thank you for your response re single dose for 12-15ish
It is the myocarditis and pericarditis concern.
I just looked some more and was not surprised by the UK but was by the latter two. UK, Hong Kong, Norway are all limiting the vaccine to a single dose for that age group.
I don’t mean to discount any of those countries, but was hoping to find some data from Israel.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/hong-kong-panel-recommends-single-dose-biontechs-covid-19-shot-teenagers-2021-09-16/
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58547659
Thanks Vicki. I do wonder now if this info will only promote more vaccine hesitancy from parents, especially with the potential side effects being heart related. A double-edged sword to certainly consider depending on your teens overall health and/or past history.
The one-dose `compromise’ for the 12-15 age group in the UK, Norway, and Hong Kong is leading to important discussions among scientists and policymakers. Given my limited background in virology and epidemiology I feel I can’t contribute to this particular debate, but just report the policy statements that have come out.
What concerns me is this: One dose isn’t nearly as effective as two. The difference is massive. While I understand the desire to minimize dangerous side effects, it may then be `theater’ to give the 12-15 age group any doses at all. If there’s concern about the side effects, then why even give one dose as it has only limited effectiveness.
There has been discussion with regard to diss amounts and giving the same amount to smaller bodies. I have seen some conversation re efficacy being high for younger age groups after one vaccine
The heart problems occur after the second vaccine. Even for my girls and me the irregular heartbeat showed up after second vaccine. My guess is that is the reasoning. But like you, it is a guess.
I know Faust’s concern for third vaccine is also related to the same as above. It is the younger folks (12-40) that impacts the heart. As I type, I’m wondering if some of the hesitancy for third vaccine is based on that
Diss=vaccine
No clue where diss came from
Colleague of mine in Britain just tweeted: “Just been called by @NHSTestTrace and advised to book a #PCR test, so will do it today!”
This kind of contact tracing – after it’s been determined that someone you’ve been in contact with, at work, in a gym, in a restaurant, etc … has tested positive for coronavirus – doesn’t happen systematically in the U.S., at least not that I’m aware of, even in Massachusetts. Had we done better contact tracing from the beginning we would have prevented tens of thousands of deaths, if not more, nationwide. Please keep in mind, the reason people should test after being contacted by a contacted tracer is to prevent further spread. You’re supposed to isolate, test, and only then resume normal outside-the-household activities. Here in the U.S. I get a sense that the messaging is off, as it tends to focus on what testing will do for you. It’s mostly not about you, it’s about preventing further spread.
Solidarity is a wonderful term that Europeans use – from across the political spectrum – to describe how one is supposed to be mindful of others, especially the vulnerable, at all times. It’s a term that’s rarely if ever used in the U.S. , at least outside of a particularized religious context. This is too bad. And, it’s certainly not helpful during a pandemic that our social side isn’t triggered more.
VERY impressive.
Agree. It was one of the first things I noticed in the Netherlands when I went there in 1980. The Dutch are not more caring than Americans, but their system is constructed in such a way that it incorporates a solidarity concept. This applies across all public goods, such as education, healthcare, housing, and infrastructure. The consensus around this system is almost universal.
Paradoxically, perhaps, to some Americans, the Dutch perspective on individual liberty is directly tied into solidarity. For example, the “Freedom of Education Act” (I believe it was signed in the 1920s in Holland), ensures that ALL residents of the Netherlands can access a public education of their choosing – religious or secular – without having to pay for it. So, you can send your child to any school – there are no school districts or property taxes that determine school funding – provided there is sufficient space in the school of your choosing. The principle of freedom of education is contingent on solidarity. No-one should have to pay for a public good – education – that suits their religious or secular values.
The philosophy behind this is the distinction between “positive” and “negative” freedoms. The latter refers to freedom from interference from the government; the former outlines a set of rights individual citizens have to public goods. The American system has always emphasized freedom from government interference; the Europeans, on the other hand, have mostly emphasized positive rights or freedoms. Another paradox is that Europeans are much more fearful of privacy intrusion from private firms than government. Hence, all the protections – established by legislation – from interference or intrusion by private firms.
Here is a short BBC video about vaccines that brings up some interesting points:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/ideas/videos/what-would-a-world-without-vaccines-be-like/p09773sc
Thanks for sharing, SClarke!
Excellent. Thank you. And engage with people in the middle. How have we yet to learn that.
Oddly, I don’t recall a fear of measles, German measles, mumps (except it was important for boys to be exposed to them) and chicken pox. I don’t even recall a fear of polio. I have said before that we were at Humarock in early 1950s for a week or so and the cases surged so the person we rented from gave the home to my parents at no cost so they didn’t have to move my brother and me
Dr. Rajkumar’s tweet contains a graph showing the large and widening differential in Covid-19 deaths between the U.S. and its peers. https://twitter.com/VincentRK/status/1439704203648188417
Again very interesting. Thank you.
Thank you for the thank yous. 🙂
C-19 for 9-20 is ready.